Curse

jibikao · Jan 06, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

I like the suggestions on the 3 Mind skills. The Mind skills have way too many conditions and the recharge doesn't justify it. Energy cost is alright. Exhaustion prevents Ele from casting it often and if the Ele is low on energy, those Elites won't even be good.

Mysterial · Jan 06, 2006, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Res sig is balanced by DP. No need to reduce the life gain. If you killed the target once you should be able to do it again but much easier the 2nd time.

If it was balanced by DP, you wouldn't be required to bring it to win in the arenas. If it was balanced compared to the resurrection spells, those spells would see use in PvP.

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Mind burn does not need to be aoe "on fire" last for 7 seconds making it over 100 dmg in degen then another 100 from spell's dmg. Mind burn is fine the way it is.

I don't remember the last time I got Mind Burn to last the full 7 seconds on any team with a monk. Also important is that it costs 15 energy instead of 10 (which hurts double when you have to have more energy for the spell to be worth anything) and that it's a single target spell in a line dominated by AoE. If you think 7 seconds of burning on multiple is too much, I'd still take 3 seconds of flame in an AoE instead of the current effect.

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Mind shock is fine. 1 second casting with 140 dmg is just fine.

Let's compare it to Lightning Orb.

Positives:
-5 energy, -1 casting time, instant hit instead of projectile, knockdown

Negatives:
+15 second recharge time (!!!), conditional, exhaustion, elite

Exhaustion for knockdown is a standard non-elite spell trade. Longer recharge time for minor reductions in cost and/or casting time is a standard non-elite spell trade. Are you going to tell me that it being instant hit is worth a conditional and your elite slot?

The only reason to use Mind Shock is when you need a second Lightning Orb. If there were enough good damage spells in Air Magic to fill a skill bar, nobody would ever take it.

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Mind freeze does need a boost but not in dmg. I'd rather have the increased slow duration.

The increased slow duration is definitely more important. But I don't think it would hurt to have the spell be the only water magic hex that does damage worth having. It is elite, after all.

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Ward vs Harm does not need to be 32 armor. At a 20 armor increase you are reducing all dmg by 1/4. At 32 armor you are reducing by 1/3. That's insane.

No, it's reducing all elemental damage by about 1/3. Warrior and ranger damage bonuses ignore armor and so you're actually getting less. For an elite spell, taking Ward Against Elements' damage and applying it to warrior and ranger damage, half of which ignores it, is a bit weak.

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Sheilding Hands is a very powerful skill that is often overlooked because of recharge. Peronally I have no problem with 25 recharge but I think 15 is a little much. Being able to reduce dmg by 15+ (on avg) and have a 3 second window that it is down is way too much. 20 recharge would be much better.

Perhaps, although in a spike-heavy game like Guild Wars Protective Spirit is superior in every way, especially because of its fast recharge.

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Point Blank shot does 100+ dmg so ya that sounds like we need to increase the dmg. Its fine the way it is.

In what case does Point Blank shot do 100+ dmg that another arrow attack won't do the same at longer range?

flawless650 · Jan 06, 2006, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Concussion shot is meant to be a well-timed interrupt on a caster. If you really have trouble trying to interrupt pesky mesmers and protect monks, bring along arcane conundrum or nature's renewal to double their casting rate.

Warriors and rangers both only have one skill that can penetrate armor, primary profession only. Whereas, the entire lightning line has 25% armor penetration. If the penetration clauses stack, then we're looking at 45% armor penetration. Fire and earth lines have the most hard hitting spells; most fire spells do 119 damage at 16 fire while earth can augment damage or cause armor ignoring damage. (Yes, I know that armor ignoring damage would have no affect with 20% armor penetration.) Only ice has the most pathetic damage out of all the ele lines; however, this flaw is fixed by the high-damage spammable spells only water eles have. If you wanted to increase the damage done by water skills, then add in some points into the necro curse line to grab soul barbs.

Disrupting lunge is too spammable at its current state. Need I remind you that rangers have the primary attribute expertise which can reduce recharge times? Given that it is totally spammable, add in call of haste and your pet can disrupt most spells instantaneously just like a mesmer, which seems too good of a shutdown build if you ask me.

Any sort of buffs to perm rezzes (excluding unyeilding aura) would seem kind of unbalancing, I wouldn't want a resmer just to bring up most of his teammates that my team had just killed. In my opinion, rez buffs just makes glyph of sacrifice less useful.

Phades · Jan 06, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The 15-25 energy elementalist spells often have useful or powerful effects - e.g. Meteor Shower. Concussion shot, even with high expertise is still quite expensive for a Ranger for an effect that is almost completely useless outside of random arenas. It needs to be at least cheap enough that you can afford to spam it a little more, similar to Blinding Flash for Elementalists.

The parity you are going for here is not quite the same, as blinding flash does not effectivly stop all skill use comming from that character. People can also move out of the meteor shower AOE before they take a single hit, in addition to limiting its effect to only one hit as well. Many npc monsters do this well enough. If the character is not forced to stay in the same position for more than 1s, when the spell casting finishes, they will avoid the majority of it without many other circumstances in place. The issue of stray bow fire is more user error than anything else, while block/evade attacks have to be compensated by everyone who attacks normally. Then there is also the issue of exhaustion which is to discourage non-elementalist primaries from using the skill, but since there is only 1 exhaustion removal skill which is eliete and a glyph its not exactly a widely viable option.

The mistake with alot of the ranger skills creates a trend which lead people to believe that they should be spam masters. We saw this with spirits, we saw this with interupts, we still see it with damage style spikes. Not all skills should be this way. It is functional and it does require the opponent to take measures against it, unlike elementalist skills that merely require the player to move 2-3 steps to get out of the way or spread out from each other.

The reality with this skill is, unless the ranger is split 4 different ways, the expertise level will be either 14-15 or 11, making the real cost of concussion shot 10-11e, or 14. Then you figure in a zealous string reducing the cost by another point bringing the totals down even more. The problem is that efficency is far greater than pool size especially when combined with regeneration options like a zealos string mod. What you have is a skill that will last longer than its refresh time and completly shuts down a character that and casts which doesnt happen to be a interupt mesmer or a protection monk.

Migraine and arcane conodrum do not give a free shutdown on the character that recieves this effect, while concussion does. They are more difficult to maintain and require normal interupts as well. If the character is running migraine, then it is not running power block or mantra of recovery in order to have better interupt and shutdown coverage unlike a ranger who merely just has to keep attacking. Also, for a proper mesmer parity, you would have to figure in the actual cost of the interupt spell being used for each spell being cast, which adds 10-15 to the already existing 10 cost and cycle slower than bow refire rate or other interupt skills the ranger posesses that interupt anything. The only point of real contention that can be argued is the existance of martyr, but since condition stacks are so easy to apply with a ranger i dont feel it is a point in favor of cost reduction for rangers.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Possibly, although you're forgetting that some conditions don't inflict degen such as Blindness and Deep Wound. Additionally Burning is always very short and the health regeneration is going to outlast it. Also it's a Shout so your stance slot is free (unlike Melandru's Resilience). I actually forgot about MR working with hexes as well, but that might be overkill for this skill.

Yes, but the premis is to survive, which implies the damaging conditions not the disabling ones. Also in the burning instance, the shout lasts longer than the condition does, but the regen from the shout is conditional to having the condition in the first place. In short, even with it including hexes, the skill is just trash. It is better to just have +3-5 pips of regen constantly than subtracting 3 from each potential damaging condition. If you get hit with something like virulence you are still hosed in either skill used, however with a monk secondary provides options to wipe out all of those conditions while keeping the regen.

A more amusing buff to the skill would be to make it like IWAY and increase attack speed if afflicted by a condition. It would be pointless though if the conditions involved happened to be cripple, blind, weakness that the bonus regeneration actually is noticably beneficial with.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

I'd be curious to hear in what situation you think Concussion Shot is good. In my view, it is nearly useless unless you can spam it, and you can't spam it because it costs too much, so it's underpowered. I compare it to the Elementalist skill Blinding Flash, which has a similiarly crippling effect on warriors and rangers if it manages to stay on and has the same situation of needing to be cast repeatedly against a team with any condition removal at all. The difference? Blinding Flash costs 15 energy. (And before you mention Expertise, Elementalists have attunements that do nearly the same thing)

Attunments are just free energy for anyone running the inspiration line and are not up 24/7 like expertise is. It is far from the same. Blinding flash does not also prevent the character from using skills like concussion shot does and it needs to be spammed unlike concussion shot. If the problem is the arrow reaching the target fast enough, rangers have options to adjust that situation as well in addition to picking a shorter range bow with a flatter firing line. The skill does not need to be spammed to be effective. Being able to apply it to every caster on the opposing team with 1 ranger would be a massive mistake. The skill does not need to be altered its self and is only kept in check by things like martyr and a couple other select skills in 8v8 play.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Why? Unlike Distracting Shot (which does have a 10 second recharge), you cannot 'aim' Disrupting Lunge because the pet will do it on its next attack instead of having a 1/2 activation time. The faster recharge seems like reasonable compensation.

Because it is a baby sitting skill and is not too difficult to just keep spamming it on one character like a necro or a ele without even watching their new and improved skill icons under the name. The idea is to force similar timing between all interupt skills. Pets need improvements in other areas before something like this would need to happen though.

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Originally Posted by flawless650

Warriors and rangers both only have one skill that can penetrate armor, primary profession only. Whereas, the entire lightning line has 25% armor penetration. If the penetration clauses stack, then we're looking at 45% armor penetration.

Penetration does not stack. Not all air spells have penetration.

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Originally Posted by flawless650

Fire and earth lines have the most hard hitting spells; most fire spells do 119 damage at 16 fire while earth can augment damage or cause armor ignoring damage.

Lightning hits harder than fire and earth hits harder than lightning against rangers and warriors.

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Originally Posted by flawless650

Only ice has the most pathetic damage out of all the ele lines; however, this flaw is fixed by the high-damage spammable spells only water eles have. If you wanted to increase the damage done by water skills, then add in some points into the necro curse line to grab soul barbs.

You could do that, but i highly doubt you will be focusing all of the hex inducing spells on the same target. Ice spear without any outside help will out do fire spells, excluding stacked damage from meteor shower + something else. Water cant really spike damage, but thats about it. You could use frozen burst, but that would place the ele in melee range with the intdended targets.

Banebow · Jan 06, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Resurrection Signet - Reduce health restored to 50%.

There is a reason it is a one-time skill. I don't think it is because it gets an ally back at half-health.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Mind Burn - Also affect adjacent foes.

Getting a bit strong there, 100 damage with a 7 second burn is not bad as part of a spike. Make it AoE and you end up with 5 mind burn spike eles who can kill whole groups in 5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Shatter Hex - reduce energy cost to 10

They nerfed the damage and AoE and now it's too overcosted to be useful.

120 damage aoe is still nothing to sneeze at. Yes, the AoE is smaller, but cut it down to 10 energy and you may find it a bit to strong. It casts fast enough to be a good hex removal spell, which is what it is ment to be in addition to the damage, but I do not think it is ment to be spammable as well.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Mantra of Recovery - Reduce energy cost to 10

Considering that many of the Mesmer elites are super versions of other spells as well as Mesmers having Arcane Echo and Echo, it's hard to find a skill bar where you'd want multiple skills to recharge faster, not use the elite version for one of them or one of the Echo spells, and have enough energy to actually cast those spells as fast as they're recharging.

Agreed, the skill is pretty much pointless right now. As has been suggested, a bit longer duration (or a shorter recharge time) may also be in order.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Arcane Echo - don't allow copying Elite spells

Arcane Mimicry has a long recharge for a reason. Two elites are powerful. For many skills, it being two of the same spell isn't any less so.

I have to disagree here, arcane mimicry has a long recharge because it copies an elite that you do not have on your bar, it can provide you with a second, different elite, rather than the same elite. I can think of no spells off the top of my head that you would want to make a duplicate of, especially with the 15 energy cost, that will provide a good advantage. Would you please name a few?

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Rebirth - Increase spell range to 1.5x normal spell range

Being able to cast it at long range might make this spell useful in PvP for stealth resurrections. Or not, but it's worth a try.

Won't change much. Skill lock is still the problem, not the range. It also has a 6 second cast time, an eternity for your teams mesmer who is under focused fire while you try to res. If you are the last one left standing (and so are trying to stealth-res your team) then you are just wasting time. You got killed once, and now you have dp.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Chillblains - Reduce energy cost to 15, increase recharge to 20

25 energy and a condition that requires yet more energy to remove is too expensive for a spell that will, if you're lucky, remove one enchantment from two or three enemies and cause them negligible damage.

Good idea, 25 energy is way overkill, even if it is the only skill in the game against spell breaker. Unless this is on a warrior, the caster is not likely to be next to the target anyway.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Weaken Armor - Reduce armor vs all, not just physical

So Elementalists and Necromancers using cold spells can take advantage of this spell to get some damage boost options like the other damage classes.

Bad plan, warriors and rangers are a heck of a lot easier (read: many more counters) to shut down than an elementalist. Hence one reason it only effects the warriors and rangers.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Consume Corpse, Necrotic Traversal - Increase recharge to 5 seconds.

For the same reason that Putrid Explosion got it.

Putrid got it because battles became a button-mashing challenge between the necros. Winners team gets a deadly explosion. No such problems exist with CC or NT.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Concussion Shot - Reduce energy cost to 15

Dazed is overcosted by a lot.

Expertise for the win. When I use this skill I don't have energy problems, but then I also don't try to spam it. Dazed is to powerful a condition for an easy application, and you are talking about making the skill cost 7-8 energy (most rangers have about 14 expertise)

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Belly Smash - Add +1...16 damage

Who cares about Blinding knocked down targets? There are better skills to be using, like ones that cause damage.

The skill still would not get used, 1. . .16 damage on a knocked down foe is a tiny increase, and is not going to make any difference.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Hammer Bash - Increase knockdown time to 3 seconds

Considering how much adrenaline some hammer attacks take and how long it takes to get there, an attack that loses all of it really needs to be worth it.

It already is worth it, stoneskin gauntlets take it to 3 seconds (I think) Up it to a base of 3, and the gauntlets are a pointless addition. Let it go above 3, and backbreaker becomes a skill worse than hammer bash, despite elite status (and backbreaker is already fairly bad compared to devastating hammer)

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Hundred Blades - Add damage bonus of +1...10

So it's clearly better than the non-elite Cyclone Axe instead of requiring complicated enchantment setups to get it that way.

Totally agree, this skill needs a buff, and this looks to be a good way to do that.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Desperation Blow - Attack time of 3/4 second

So (maybe) it'll have a use as an "OMG they're about to die I need to attack RIGHT NOW!" skill.

My axe attacks under frenzy go about this fast, I still would not use this skill, especially with the knockdown effect. Maybe instant attack speed but provides no adrenaline?

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Skull Crack - Reduce adrenaline to 7 strikes

Dazed is overcosted.

Probably won't make it get used any more, but it also does not seem to make it overpowered, so sure, why not.

audioaxes · Jan 06, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

put skull crack back at 10 addrenaline and make it unconditional dazed hit, and you lose all addrenaline when you use it

decrease cool down on warriors cunning to 45 seconds,

increase the aoe on "Charge", make it last a bit longer

turn flourish into a shout, decrease cool down

turn unyielding aura into a hard res removing enchant burden

increase cost of migrane to 15, decrease length

give the sword line an extra decent addren attack

make dual shot 15 energy attack

make crude swing a 4 addren attack and remove the easily interrupted part

decrease addren cost of mighty blow

make cleave an attack that cant be blocked or evaded

flawless650 · Jan 06, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

With the right skill set, a beast master can cause some major problems for the enemy team. However, I do admit they have pretty crappy AI; it takes several seconds from you wanding/attacking another player before it switches targets.

I consider fire to be the hardest hitting line for an ele but very inconsistent damage, while lightning has more reliable damage with its armor piercing ability. Ie: Fire will do 119 damage to most casters except when they have fire resistance or have high armor. Lightning is guarenteed to hit high on all casters even against a bit of lightning resistance. (Assuming people don't take stances.)

I'd hardly call 5 fire eles with mind burn (buffed version) a spike. It does inconsistant damage and the burn effect would just overlap. It'd be just a Rodgort's Invocation on steroids. Most likely though, the 7 or 8 second burning would be cured before it reaches its full effect. Probably be used to supplement spikes or be used as just another counter for iway.

Phades · Jan 06, 2006, 08:56 AM // 08:56

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Originally Posted by Banebow

There is a reason it is a one-time skill. I don't think it is because it gets an ally back at half-health.

And it comes back with every morale boost. Good teams can get morale boosts without too much effort.

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Originally Posted by Banebow

Getting a bit strong there, 100 damage with a 7 second burn is not bad as part of a spike. Make it AoE and you end up with 5 mind burn spike eles who can kill whole groups in 5 seconds.

And if they are all bunched up like that they sorta deserve to get hit hard by something. Burning doesnt stack, so multiple fire eles cant really optimize like this. Feast of corruption only costs 10 energy, doesnt cause exhaustion, heals, the only conditional effect is a hex and does over 100 aoe damage. Currently just using immolate twice is better than mind burn, but fireball is better than immolate, so....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

Won't change much. Skill lock is still the problem, not the range. It also has a 6 second cast time, an eternity for your teams mesmer who is under focused fire while you try to res. If you are the last one left standing (and so are trying to stealth-res your team) then you are just wasting time. You got killed once, and now you have dp.

The energy drain is worse in the long term from rebirth than the skill lock. It wouldnt matter if it did lock the skills or not in most cases since you have no energy anyway.

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Originally Posted by Banebow

Bad plan, warriors and rangers are a heck of a lot easier (read: many more counters) to shut down than an elementalist. Hence one reason it only effects the warriors and rangers.

I hope you arent serious. Rangers are one of the most difficult to shut down. There is no such thing as mass or long term ranger hate in the game. They share the same counters as warriors, with a few exceptions making the list far smaller than warriors in addition to being ideal to counter necros and eles. Necros and eles also require fewer skills from fewer people to counter them individually and when they are countered, they are rendered completely ineffective.

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Originally Posted by Banebow

It already is worth it, stoneskin gauntlets take it to 3 seconds (I think) Up it to a base of 3, and the gauntlets are a pointless addition. Let it go above 3, and backbreaker becomes a skill worse than hammer bash, despite elite status (and backbreaker is already fairly bad compared to devastating hammer)

It would have to be able to go above 4 as well should that occur. It would have to cap somewhere under blackout, but going that high is rather strong anyway.

Symeon · Jan 06, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

This thread is so covered in quotes, it makes my current headache even worse.

Some good ideas though, but like some others have said you need to put some IWAY nerfs in there.

audioaxes · Jan 06, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

res sigs are fine as is and if they did do what some are suggesting it will decrease the skill level of pvp as ppl can make halfway decent spike builds without having to deal with the team ressing back as efficiently
dp is powerful enough when it comes to death and a res sig is a part of the gameplay itself that shouldnt be counted as anyother skill that can be overpowered or underpowered

Banebow · Jan 06, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

put skull crack back at 10 addrenaline and make it unconditional dazed hit, and you lose all addrenaline when you use it

Unconditional dazed is overpowered. Every group would take three or more warriors with skull crack and just daze all the monks. Casters would become useless without defensive spells up before the battle has gone on for long, and if the dazed lands anyway then no more defenses will be coming up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

And it comes back with every morale boost. Good teams can get morale boosts without too much effort.

I wouldn't say without much effort. If you know your ghostly is about to die, heal him. If they are in need of the boost, then you should have no trouble. Same thing with GvG flag stands. If they need the boost and you don't, it should not take much for you to keep hold of the stand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

And if they are all bunched up like that they sorta deserve to get hit hard by something. Burning doesnt stack, so multiple fire eles cant really optimize like this. Feast of corruption only costs 10 energy, doesnt cause exhaustion, heals, the only conditional effect is a hex and does over 100 aoe damage. Currently just using immolate twice is better than mind burn, but fireball is better than immolate, so....

True, but I don't think you mentioned the AoE size. Are we talking ward range, or something smaller? Also, it was not the burning that was the problem, but the 500 aoe damage. With FoC spike, decent teams will guess what is happening when the entire team gets hit with suffering, and so will spread out. Mind burn will just slam you. If you ment that only the burning is aoe, then I see little problem with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I hope you arent serious. Rangers are one of the most difficult to shut down. There is no such thing as mass or long term ranger hate in the game. They share the same counters as warriors, with a few exceptions making the list far smaller than warriors in addition to being ideal to counter necros and eles. Necros and eles also require fewer skills from fewer people to counter them individually and when they are countered, they are rendered completely ineffective.

The only mass caster hate that comes to mind is signet of weariness and panic. Scourge sacrifice is not really caster hate against anything but sac necros, and nothing else comes to mind for AoE shutdown. However, rangers can easily be shutdown with blind. Yes, blind comes off quickly, but blinding flash comes back darned fast as well. You are of course right, rangers are harder to shutdown than warriors, what with all the anti-warrior wards, cripple, etc. but there are numerous hexes that will take a ranger down to physical damage, or force him or her to not attack. Besides backfire, a caster always has the option to cast. Energy denial is no easy feat, and usually takes a dedicated build. Blinded rangers cannot interrupt, and it will be a very good ranger who can stop blinding flash or ineptitude. There are also plenty of stances that prevent rangers from hitting, and one stance to prevent interruption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

Some good ideas though, but like some others have said you need to put some IWAY nerfs in there.

IWAY does not need a nerf. If you cannot kill them, then I am sorry, but plenty of guilds have no trouble with it. Also, nerfing IWAY will do nothing but bring another flavor-of-the-month out, which people will soon be calling for nerfs on.

Mysterial · Jan 06, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

There is a reason it is a one-time skill. I don't think it is because it gets an ally back at half-health.

The point is more to make having one or two characters with /Mo secondary balanced vs res sig on everybody instead of the current situation where even a resmer with high healing is a waste of time in everything that's not GvG (and even there, questionable).

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120 damage aoe is still nothing to sneeze at. Yes, the AoE is smaller, but cut it down to 10 energy and you may find it a bit to strong. It casts fast enough to be a good hex removal spell, which is what it is ment to be in addition to the damage, but I do not think it is ment to be spammable as well.

It's not *that* underpowered, but if it's not meant to be spammable, I'd rather they enforce it with a large recharge time and make the energy cost something that your average Mesmer can afford to spend.

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I have to disagree here, arcane mimicry has a long recharge because it copies an elite that you do not have on your bar, it can provide you with a second, different elite, rather than the same elite. I can think of no spells off the top of my head that you would want to make a duplicate of, especially with the 15 energy cost, that will provide a good advantage. Would you please name a few?

Most non-Enchantment Elites are useful to double up. Never hurts to Migraine two casters at once, for instance. Or just to beat hex removal. It's true that it gets pricey, but so does Arcane Mimicry.

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Putrid got it because battles became a button-mashing challenge between the necros. Winners team gets a deadly explosion. No such problems exist with CC or NT.

Well, now it's a button mash for an energy advantage instead of pure damage. Close enough. It's still the case that Wells are rarely seen outside of against IWAY (due to the huge volume of deaths going on) and even then teams don't get them off very often.

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It already is worth it, stoneskin gauntlets take it to 3 seconds (I think) Up it to a base of 3, and the gauntlets are a pointless addition. Let it go above 3, and backbreaker becomes a skill worse than hammer bash, despite elite status (and backbreaker is already fairly bad compared to devastating hammer)

You are correct, I forgot that stoneskin gauntlets max out at 3 second knockdowns.

audioaxes · Jan 06, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38

an unconditional dazed wouldnt be overpowered
in ca/ta a good warrior would still have a target dead before you would even be able to daze them
in 8v8 you have other monks to help out and simply remove the daze

Banebow · Jan 06, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

in 8v8 you have other monks to help out and simply remove the daze

You might want to read over what I said again, specifically the part about groups taking more than one warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The point is more to make having one or two characters with /Mo secondary balanced vs res sig on everybody instead of the current situation where even a resmer with high healing is a waste of time in everything that's not GvG (and even there, questionable).

To me, that hints at a problem with the regular res spells, not res signet. Problem is, cut res signet down, and groups will be dead meat once a player goes down because they will never get him back up again. Buff res spells to much and we have battles that last forever. While I cannot say if things should remain the way they are now, it is possible that ANet knew about this when they made the game, and res spells are ment primarily for PvE while the signet is ment for PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Most non-Enchantment Elites are useful to double up. Never hurts to Migraine two casters at once, for instance. Or just to beat hex removal. It's true that it gets pricey, but so does Arcane Mimicry.

The better fix for this is not to prevent elite copying, but to lengthen the recharge or increase the cost. In a game where skill combos are the path to victory, it can get old fast if plenty of skills have strange prevention abilities like "not usable with elite skills". Much better to make a player commit to the combo fully (higher cost) or not as spammable (longer recharge) than remove the combo altogether (excluding combos that are overpowered, such as if a combo existed to make a player invincible, or one that could kill a player every time, no preventable effects used.)

Phades · Jan 07, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

I wouldn't say without much effort. If you know your ghostly is about to die, heal him. If they are in need of the boost, then you should have no trouble. Same thing with GvG flag stands. If they need the boost and you don't, it should not take much for you to keep hold of the stand.

Yeah, but we are starting down the path of strategy versus skill effectiveness now. Dividing up the enemy team by using a runner to try and stop the morale boost would more than make up for the 1 man lost and renewing the signets/long recharge skills for the entire team.

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Originally Posted by Banebow

True, but I don't think you mentioned the AoE size. Are we talking ward range, or something smaller? Also, it was not the burning that was the problem, but the 500 aoe damage. With FoC spike, decent teams will guess what is happening when the entire team gets hit with suffering, and so will spread out. Mind burn will just slam you. If you ment that only the burning is aoe, then I see little problem with it.

Yeah there is a big difference between having an AOE effect and having a large AOE effect. I believe that sort of thing is more trial and error than anything else. Also, the hex does not have to be delivered from a necro, or in the necro lines. It could easily be something simple like ice spikes or complicated like panic. The point is, it ignores armor level so it hits relativly hard against everything, while fire only hits hard against unprotected casters.

Also any decent team will spread out if they notice an AOE strategy, not just FOC, which is a major drawback inherent to many of the elementalist spells that are static in nature or really slow on delivery, reuse, and heavy in cost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

The only mass caster hate that comes to mind is signet of weariness and panic. Scourge sacrifice is not really caster hate against anything but sac necros, and nothing else comes to mind for AoE shutdown. However, rangers can easily be shutdown with blind. Yes, blind comes off quickly, but blinding flash comes back darned fast as well. You are of course right, rangers are harder to shutdown than warriors, what with all the anti-warrior wards, cripple, etc. but there are numerous hexes that will take a ranger down to physical damage, or force him or her to not attack. Besides backfire, a caster always has the option to cast.

Not if the caster is under the effect of dazed, or in conjuction with migraine/conodrum while in conjunction with easily repeated skills like those that are delivered from a ranger. Blind does not compare to things like concussion, its not even in the same discussion realistically. Weakness comes closer, but only really applies to warriors, because if the ranger is interupts the importance of damage can be viewed as secondary. Rangers also typically have stacked damage sources, so that the primary weakness damage hurts but doesnt cripple them entirely. So in essence you potentially must compesnate for physical hits and fire elemental damage. You are also listing mass caster hate against single target physical damage hate. Again you have no real parity here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

Energy denial is no easy feat, and usually takes a dedicated build. Blinded rangers cannot interrupt, and it will be a very good ranger who can stop blinding flash or ineptitude. There are also plenty of stances that prevent rangers from hitting, and one stance to prevent interruption.

Ineptitude is more like comparing against diversion, except you are not losing a skill for a long period of time. It can also be compared to mark of subversion, guilt, and shame. It will take alot more than blinding flash to stop a ranger, but repeat diversion, blackout, daze, or backfire (some have removal issues while others do not) will stop a caster. You dont need all of the above to accomplish that feat, merely any 1 of those skills, while in order to stop a ranged physical attacker like a ranger it takes a few skills in conjunction with each other, time, and no removal to achieve the same effect. Energy denial is closer to the style of build required, in terms of skill positions used by 1 character, to what it takes to "shut down" a ranger never mind groups of them.

jibikao · Jan 07, 2006, 12:41 AM // 00:41

My suggestion will make Skull Crack the instant attack like Disrupting Lunge. Leave the 10 adrenline. It will greatly improve this skill IMO, not like it's a great skill... condition is so easily removed. In fact, how many skills in the game cause Daze? Skull "Crap" and Concussion Shot?

Weaken Armor adds huge damage even on warriors. If anything, I find the casting time too long. 3s is asking for interruption. Barbs only has 2s.

Hundred Blades should add some damage. Maybe +1-6. +10 is too much. That's like +20 AoE. +12 damage will make HB really useful.

Mysterial · Jan 07, 2006, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

To me, that hints at a problem with the regular res spells, not res signet. Problem is, cut res signet down, and groups will be dead meat once a player goes down because they will never get him back up again. Buff res spells to much and we have battles that last forever. While I cannot say if things should remain the way they are now, it is possible that ANet knew about this when they made the game, and res spells are ment primarily for PvE while the signet is ment for PvP.

I don't think reducing Resurrection Signet to 50% health is going to affect normal builds all that much. It's 1-2 quick heals away from full health and it's unlikely that the enemy is going to spike him down again in that time. It's a little more energy and attention burden to get someone back up, but I don't think that's a bad thing. It also still casts the fastest and is slightly harder to interrupt because it is not a spell so I think even at 50% health most teams would run it anyway.

What is DOES affect is the arenas (where Resurrection Signet is the decider in way too many battles) and no-monk builds like IWAY that can't immediately heal the player that was resurrected.

flawless650 · Jan 07, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39

I have this odd feeling that nobody read my comments on the numerous crappy elites in this game...

Skull Crack is nearly impossible to pull off without an ias skill and even then it's just pure luck against many of the fast casters within the game. Right now, this doesn't even deserve to be an elite.

Mind Burn (buffed) is not overpowered; the only time you'll see people bunch up adjacent to one another is if the team balls up or there are warriors on the team.

Divinus Stella · Jan 07, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Preventing dead pets from triggering IWAY and Increasing the cooldowns on ranger interrupts so they cant be shot so close together would make me happy, anything else would be a bonus.

Chev of Hardass · Jan 07, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Edge of Extinction needs to be nerfed, and now.

I suggest making the damage output drop linearily as you move away from it. Ideally, a EoE team would need to start getting right in the middle of the battle to be effective.

This would also make IWAY teams drop EoE out in the open where they can be seen and interupted. Additionally, when the HoH turns into a giant EoE bomb, you would not have to abandon the entire Hall just to try and stay alive.

As it is now, EoE on the field means that either team has about a 50% chance of winning. This "skill" removes team play, hard work, and gaming skill, and that should equal NERF!!!